I am delighted to get emails from readers of the Coffee Talks. Recently a very nice man wrote to me and said that he liked my Coffee Talk on "Honorary Degrees and Bogus Degree Alert!" You might like to go back to that CT and read it before going on with this one. Anyway, he had some interesting ideas about the Doctor of Ministry degree, and below I am simply sharing with you my email conversation with him. I hope you find it interesting and enlightening.
Jim wrote:
Hello Dr. Rick Walston, Ph.D.
Thanks for an excellent article I read on Honorary Degrees. I concur whole heartedly.
By the way I have an Honorary Doctorate in Sacred Music from Trinity Bible College of Holiday, Florida. It was, when a Bible Institute the Alma Matter of Dr. Billy Graham.
My question? I would love your understanding on D.Min. Degrees, which appear to me, to be not much different than an honorary, other than the fact, you have to write a thesis and pay a lot of money from accredited Institutions for such a degree.
A D.Min. degree not much different than an honorary degree, other than the fact,
you have to write a thesis and pay a lot of money from accredited
institutions for such a degree?
Well, first, in the American seminary educational system, one does more that write a dissertation (not a thesis). There are classes to do as well. Furthermore, one must have an M.Div. (or equivalent) prior to even being allowed to enroll for the D.Min. So, the D.Min. is built upon three years of master's level work.
A DMin Compared to Other Degrees
A medical degree, Medical Doctor (M.D.), is a professional degree that takes from 2 to 4 years of undergraduate (pre-med) studies and 4 more years of doctoral studies = 6 to 8 years. At that point, they have the Doctor of Medicine degree, but they cannot yet practice medicine. To practice medicine, they must do an internship that can take from 2 to 3 years depending on their state's requirements. Total = 8 to 11 years of college/internship. (The internship is not to be confused with specialty certification, see letter from Dr. Joseph Pisano below.)
A law degree, Juris Doctor (J.D.), is a professional degree as well. The J.D. typically takes four years of (pre-law) undergraduate study and three years of doctoral study. Total = 7 years of college. (I do not know if lawyers must also have internships as in medicine and ministry. If one of my readers knows, please email me the documentation.)
A ministry degree, Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.), takes 4 years of (pre-seminary) undergraduate studies and 3 years of master's level studies. Once these seven years are completed, the student receives the M.Div. degree. Then, typically (but not always) students are required to do a 3-year internship of full-time ministry after the M.Div. before they can enroll into the D.Min. Then, the student must do 2+ years of doctoral studies. Total = 9 to 12 years of college/internship. (Note: 2 years of doctoral studies means two academic years. However, very few students complete a D.Min. in two years.)
However, an honorary degree may be given to high school drop outs. Total = 0 years of college.
Let me add, not all honorary degrees are bad. Some people have bought honorary degrees, and that is bad.
But some received honorary degrees on the basis of their significant social contribution to a specific area. For example, a person who has been a successful missionary for 30 years might receive an honorary degree from a legitimate school for his missionary contribution.
Thus, some honorary degrees can be and are a legitimate means of recognizing a person's contribution, and some honorary degrees are as bogus as a three-dollar bill.
So, an honorary degree can be given for no work whatsoever and no prerequisites, but the D.Min. has hefty prerequisites, and it requires classes and in some cases it also requires a dissertation for a total of 9+ years of college.
Bottom line is simply this:
A D.Min. is an earned degree.
An honorary degree is not an earned degree, but, rather it is given as an honor.
A legitimate honorary degree is a "Thank you" from a group of people who wish to express their gratitude to a person.
A D.Min. is a "Job well done" from a school that is giving the person what he has earned.
So, no, Jim, I would not even begin to equate the D.Min. with an honorary degree.
Jim wrote:
For the most part not being academic, the D.Min. is hardly worth the paper it is printed on, much like an honorary degree.
Ric wrote:
Not true. A medical doctor's degree, i.e., the M.D., is not an academic degree either. It is called a professional degree. Same with dentists, opthamologist, optometrists, psychiatrist, chiropractors, lawyers, and many more.
Likewise, the D.Min. is a professional degree. The same as these degrees listed immediately below.
A Few Other Professional Degrees
Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.)
Doctor of Education (Ed.D)
Doctor of Music (D.Mus.)
Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.)
Doctor of Business Administration (D.B.A.)
Doctor of Strategic Leadership (D.S.L.)
Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (N.D.)
Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.)
Doctor of Arts (D.A.)
Doctor of Missiology (D.Miss.)
Doctor of Management in Organizational Leadership (abbreviation unknown)
Doctor of Health Administration (abbreviation unknown)
Juris Doctor (J.D.) Law degree.
So, the distinction between a professional degree and an academic degree does not make one good and one bad, and not worth the paper it's written on. The distinction between a professional degree and an academic degree is the ultimate goal.
If your goal is to be in a profession, then you would do a professional degree to that end.
Pastoring is a profession just as medicine (any kind) is a profession or just as law is a profession.
If your goal, however, is to be in academia (e.g., a professor), then you would do an academic degree to that end. People wanting to be professors at universities or seminaries will do the Ph.D. (doctor of philosophy) or the Th.D. (doctor of theology), both of which are typically academic degrees.
The D.Min. is a solid, hefty professional degree that is just as "academic" as medicine, law, education, music, art, social services, psychology, etc.
Not All Professional Degrees Are Exactly Equal One point, however, that I must clarify: I am not saying that all professional degrees are exactly the same and that every one is equally as difficult or has the same number of years in college required for them.
Thus, I am not saying that the D.Min. and the M.D. degrees are exactly equal in duration nor equally as difficult. I am merely attempting to show the similarities. Without issues of internship and fellowships etc., the sheer academic time spent in school is comparable between the D.Min. and the M.D. (and many other professional degrees listed above for that matter). Again: about 8 to 9 academic years of college leads to the D.Min., as it does for many other professional degrees, including the M.D. Showing their similarities does not mean that I am saying that they are exactly equal. What I am saying, however, is that they are comparable. (Also, before you write to me and complain about my assessment of the M.D. degree, you might want to drop down to the bottom of this page and read the letter from Dr. Joseph C. Pisano, the Associate Dean for Admissions at Tulane University School of Medicine.)
Jim wrote:
Am I too hard on those that possess and work so hard for such a degree?
Ric wrote:
:-)Yes. I'd say so.
I have respect for those who have the D.Min. It is not an easy degree. The time it takes to earn a D.Min. is about the same as it takes to become a medical doctor.
Some D.Min. degrees do not require the dissertation (or thesis), but they still require classes and research and practical application. Remember a medical degree does not require a dissertation either.
Jim wrote:
Thanks,
Jim Lancaster, Sr.
Minister to Senior Adults Calvary Baptist Church
I thoroughly enjoyed your most recent Coffee Talk. After having to gone through the D.Min program with CES, I loudly say amen to your comments. No joke, tough grading, serious work, and outstanding mentoring. Keep up the good work. I proudly sport my CES ring, degree, and education.
A few people responded to this CT and wanted to make some clarifications about the degrees and their requirements. One of the most discussed degree was the M.D. So, I pulled out an email from Dr. Joseph Pisano who is the Associate Dean for Admissions for Tulane University School of Medicine. He, better than anyone I've heard from so far, explains the route to the M.D. degree. Here is his letter:
Time table for the MD degree is actually quite simple in theory, but more complex in fact. Most, if not all medical schools, do not require an applicant to have completed the B.S. or B.A. degree; however, they do prefer that students spend the four years in study for the baccalaureate degree. So, then, the path to the MD requires three years of undergraduate study, but preferably four years.
Medical school is a four year long process and the graduate receives the M.D. degree. However, a graduate of medical school cannot practice medicine.
(Some schools, but not Tulane, have special programs that allow a student to complete one or two years of undergraduate work while in medical school. Thus, a student may be able to earn the M.D. degree with only two years of undergraduate studies and four years of medical studies.)
The practice of medicine requires licensure and graduating from medical school is only one step towards the license. In medical school the student must pass a national exam, called the United States Medical Licensure Exam (USMLE). This exam is administered in three steps: step one is usually taken at the end of the second year of medical school. Step two is usually taken at the end of medical school.
Following graduating from medical school, the new M.D. must gain experience working in the profession. The time spent during this period can be referred to as an "internship" or "residency." Each state has its own licensing requirements, but every state requires at least one internship year, which is spent in a hospital. At the end of that year the intern will take step three of the USMLE and, if the state requires only a one year internship and the intern has now passed all three steps of the USMLE, licensure can occur. Some states require at least two years of internship or residency, and one or two may (I am not sure) require three.
In addition to licensure, physicians usually become board certified in a specialty: general surgery, pediatrics, neurosurgery, etc. Certification requires the completion of a residency program in that particular specialty. Depending upon the specialty and the hospital where the residency is performed, the residency period can last from three to seven years. Certification is finally obtained by passing a specialty certification exam, which can be written, oral, or whatever.
Some physicians, after completion of a residency, may wish to sub-specialize, in which case they will take a fellowship, which can be of one year or longer duration, depending upon the sub-specialty. Thus, a physican can be a pediatric neurologist, or almost any combination that you can think of.
I hope the above gives you some guidelines to what is a long and sometimes very complicated pathway to a career.
Joseph C. Pisano
Associate Dean for Admissions
Tulane University School of Medicine
A second issue was the J.D. (law) degree. Here is just a bit more about that:
From the web pages of the University of Texas at Austin concerning the Doctor of Jurisprudence:
To be eligible for admission, an applicant must have earned a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university = 4 years undergraduate. To qualify for the Doctor of Jurisprudence degree (JD), a student must meet the following requirements:
-The student must have completed a period of resident study equivalent to at least three academic years.
-Eighty-six semester hours are required for graduation.
Note: These requirements are the same (almost exactly) for the Master of Divinity, i.e., 7 years of college (4 undergraduate, 3 graduate).
The law degree was, until the mid-1960s, was an LL.B., or Bachelor of Laws. But now virtually every American law school awards a Doctorate as the first law degree. This degree is usually the J.D., which stands either for Doctor of Jurisprudence, or Juris Doctor, although few actually call themselves “Doctor.” I am always amused at the proverbial argument between attorneys and physicians. Both groups fancy their educations to be the most difficult and demanding. I once heard an attorney and a physician go at this issue quite heatedly for some time. I thought that should this “discussion” explode into fisticuffs, the physician was going to need an attorney while the attorney was going to need a physician!
(By the way, in my investigation of a diploma mill, I was able to buy a “Harvard University” J.D. degree for $56. Of course, it did not come from Harvard at all, but that’s the name the diploma mill put on my fake “J.D. degree.” I have it hanging on my office wall as a conversation piece. And, no, I won't represent you as your lawyer.)
Send comments about this, or any, Coffee Talk to Rick Walston at: CES @ ColumbiaSeminary.edu
(Please note that you will need to take the spaces out before and after the @ sign . . . this is placed this way to avoid spam emails.)
